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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 419 for the 30th of

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October 2016 Richard Saunders here with

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you from Sydney Australia and I noticed

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just last night lots of people going out

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to Halloween parties there people

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decorating their yards with ghosts and

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cobwebs and things like that and I also

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notice that a lot of people seem to be

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up in arms here in Australia protesting

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that we some of us a lot of a lot of

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people celebrating Halloween or dressing

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up as ghosts and doing all this sort of

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thing and I'm sure they're protesting

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that while wearing their blue jeans

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listening to rock and roll just having

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seen a superhero movie with electric

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light bulbs I mean oh we can make the

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yeah the argument oh this is terrible

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this is an American cultural thing in

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Australia this is on Australian really

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while they're watching their TV sets I

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think it's a bit silly I like Halloween

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it's a lot of fun and the kids love it

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too so what the hell think the hell

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reference Halloween coming up on this

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week's show an important story what an

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important story from our friends at

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Australia's science channel Australia

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science TV Heidi Robertson the raw

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skeptic from the Northern Rivers

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vaccination supporters will interview

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dr. Paul Willis from Australia science

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channel as they've just put out a very

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very important story about people

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seeking alternative cures to cancer and

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the startling lack of good data on the

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subject how many people do it exactly

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what is their survival rate what is

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their mortality rate this is very

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important because some there is a

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percentage of cancer sufferers

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conventional treatment can absolutely

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help them but they've been convinced to

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give it up through misinformation or

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fear or whatever coming up at the top of

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the show Heidi Robertson interviews

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Paul Willis and we'll play the audio

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from the information video produced by

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the good people at Australia's science

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channel and then after the break it's

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more from Iran segev the president of

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Australian skeptics and of course his

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segment on the skeptics own grain of

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salt this week again direct from QED in

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Manchester question explore discover the

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convention that I've been to twice and

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it's a fantastic convention oh I know

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right as I speak these words the psych

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on is in Las Vegas I'm sorry I can't be

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there either anyway a run interviews

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Cara Santa Maria from the skeptics guide

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to the universe and the talk nerdy

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podcasts and many other things find out

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her story why she's at QED a bit more

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about Cara Santa Maria now here's a note

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from our friends at think ink at think

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inc dot or the people who bring you

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interesting and fascinating speakers

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thinking are proud to present an evening

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with dr. Lisa Randall here this

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world-renowned physicist discussed the

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hidden dimensions of our universe the

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balance between creative and critical

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thought in science and the importance of

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empowering girls and young woman's

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scientific interests and pursuits Amina

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England dr. Lisa Randall will be touring

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Australia Thursday the seventeenth and

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November in Brisbane Friday the 18th of

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our november in melbourne and saturday

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the 19th of november in sydney think inc

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org dot a you for more information and

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we'll have a bit more news about

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thinking a little bit later on in the

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show every summer more loosens the tie

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up at the end of the show but for now

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it's time for me to run downstairs put

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some sourdough bread in the toaster and

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indulge myself indulge myself who have

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something I rarely have that I love

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which is peanut butter and chocolate

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spread when I was a little kid here in

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Australia that was marketed under the

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brand name of Google

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the product name of kugel don't know

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which company put that out though that's

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what I knew it as it's pretty hard to

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find these days a few years ago they

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tried to bring it out again and they

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called it nuts about chocolate which I

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didn't think was a great name but it's

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pretty hard to find everybody loves

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Nutella you see and I can't stand it

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because I have a problem with hazelnuts

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so that doesn't get very far with me but

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peanuts and chocolate hmm well I do that

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it's the raw skeptic report with Heidi

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Robertson hello everyone Heidi Robertson

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here and today on the raw skeptic report

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I'll be chatting to dr. Paul Willis from

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Australia's Science Channel joining us

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now all the way from South Australia

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Adelaide we have dr. Paul Willis from

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Australia's science channel welcome back

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to the skeptic zone dr. always a

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pleasure to come back to you guys oh

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we've missed your weekly reports from

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our iOS yeah well we've now evolved

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those a week in science into brouhaha

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which is a one minute little pieces that

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we put out once or twice a week so check

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out brouhaha at Australia's Science

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Channel there we go for all the

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listeners who've been missing you every

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week there you go you can still find

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Paul online so Paul we've been hearing

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about this special investigation that

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you've been working on that would be of

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great interest I'm sure to the skeptical

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community and to the listeners of the

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skeptic zone can you tell us what it's

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all about and and in particular what

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prompted you to look into this

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particular topic yeah look let's start

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with what prompted me my partner is a

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breast cancer researcher and earlier

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this year she lamented that at one of

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the surgical meeting readings that she

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attends where they can get new material

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that one of the surgeons was lamenting

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that a woman had presented with an

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advanced breast cancer that they

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couldn't do anything with and that this

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same woman had been diagnosed 18 months

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earlier and decided not to have any

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conventional treatment and instead she

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pursued

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some alternative treatments all that

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happened was that her case got worse and

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worse to the point where it was

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untreatable when she represented back at

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the hospital and so we started from that

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point and wanted to know well okay so

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how many people do this and that's where

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we ran into the very real problem of no

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one really knows because no data is kept

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essentially if you are diagnosed with

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any cancer that has to be recorded and

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if you go through a conventional

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treatment they have to record what they

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give you and what happens to you but if

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you decide that you don't want to have a

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conventional treatment then there's no

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records kept as to what you do and what

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happens to you and so we thought yeah

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that sounds a bit odd and and how big is

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this problem well because there's no

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data that means that the literature is

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incredibly thin but what we were able to

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work out is that it's probably around

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between three and five percent of cancer

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diagnosis that don't show up for

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conventional treatment so if you

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multiply the figures out that means that

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at 130 thousand four hundred and sixty

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six new diagnosis of cancer expected in

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Australia this year of those over 5,000

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people will not pursue conventional

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treatment most of those will assumedly

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be pursuing alternative treatments and

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of those 5,000 people we can expect

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about a thousand a year to die

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prematurely because they haven't had

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appropriate treatment for their cancer

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so as I said we have to be cautious with

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those figures because there are no

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records kept and intriguingly when I've

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talked this out with other people who

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are researchers and practitioners in the

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area of cancer they are actually

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surprised that we

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chose a figure of 4% they said it's

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probably much higher than that in fact

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one said it could be as high as twenty

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percent well so those figures based on a

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pretty conservative estimate that means

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that we're talking about a problem

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comparable to the national road toll

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that's what really got me about this

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story that really grabbed my attention

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straight away because you were saying

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that the the number of deaths in

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Australia as a result of people seeking

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alternative rather than conventional

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cancer treatments could be about the

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same number every year as that of our

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national road toll that is an absolutely

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frightening thought yeah and the problem

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is we really don't know because there

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are no records kept and and i suppose

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what i've actually before I go into the

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most surprising part of this story for

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me I should point out that all of the

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practitioners in cancer care and cancer

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research that we spoke to they all

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wanted a clear distinction between

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complementary therapies and alternative

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treatments for cancer right they're all

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in favor of patients exploring

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complementary therapies to assist them

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on their journey through cancer with

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conventional therapies the only thing

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they ask there is that you inform your

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doctor what you're trying just in case

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there's any contradictions and

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counteractions among those particular

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treatments that's probably a very

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important point that patients are

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upfront with their cancer specialists

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about any supplements or alternative

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therapies that they that they are taking

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and if the doctors are going to you know

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poopoo these therapies completely then

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the patients are less likely to divulge

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what else they're doing which could

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negatively impact on their on their

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overall treatment well exactly and you

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know that that was I thought a really

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enlightened and responsible approach

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from the practitioners

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you know look if you want to go and

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explore crystal therapy or meditation or

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whatever you get by all means do it but

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don't give up your conventional

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treatments and does don't not tell us

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what you're doing Australia's Science

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Channel media release Thursday the 27th

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of October 2016 thousands of cancer

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sufferers die unnecessarily every year

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thousands of Australians are suffering

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and dying prematurely because of

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alternative cancer treatments according

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to a special investigation by dr. Paul

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Willis director of the Royal Institution

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of Australia the report details the

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distressingly high number of cancer

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sufferers who choose to forego

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conventional treatment altogether in

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search of an alternative cure quote when

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we are talking about cancer there is a

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difference between complementary

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treatments and alternative cures and

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quote dr. Wallace said quote many of the

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frontline cancer medical practitioners

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we spoke with encourage their patients

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to seek out unconventional complementary

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treatments to help them through their

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ordeal the concern here is when a

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patient takes up an alternative non

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evidence-based cure for their cancer to

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the exclusion of conventional medical

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treatments when quote he said the report

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highlights the lack of recorded evidence

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of the efficacy of alternative

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treatments as alternative medicine

278
00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:42,339
practitioners are under no obligation to

279
00:13:47,790 --> 00:13:44,980
record their treatments or the progress

280
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:47,800
of those treatments of increasing

281
00:13:52,379 --> 00:13:50,110
concern is the number of cancer

282
00:13:54,749 --> 00:13:52,389
sufferers who return to conventional

283
00:13:57,809 --> 00:13:54,759
treatment after trying to find an

284
00:14:00,809 --> 00:13:57,819
alternative cure quote usually this

285
00:14:03,239 --> 00:14:00,819
occurs when things go wrong the cancer

286
00:14:06,030 --> 00:14:03,249
has progressed and what may have been a

287
00:14:08,309 --> 00:14:06,040
treatable condition has developed into

288
00:14:11,129 --> 00:14:08,319
an untreatable cancer with poor

289
00:14:13,889 --> 00:14:11,139
prognosis better education and awareness

290
00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:13,899
of what treatments are available as well

291
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:15,910
as proper supporting documentation and

292
00:14:19,570 --> 00:14:18,610
hard data from alternative practitioners

293
00:14:21,790 --> 00:14:19,580
is

294
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:21,800
required to empower cancer sufferers to

295
00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:25,010
make more informed decisions on their

296
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:27,260
overall treatment then quote dr. Willis

297
00:14:31,540 --> 00:14:29,450
said okay Paul what we'll do now is

298
00:14:33,970 --> 00:14:31,550
we'll just have Richard read out the

299
00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:33,980
press release from Australia's science

300
00:14:43,130 --> 00:14:40,550
but for me the most surprising part of

301
00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:43,140
the story concerned that class of

302
00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:46,110
therapies that is that other main focus

303
00:14:52,940 --> 00:14:48,690
of the story and those are alternative

304
00:14:54,889 --> 00:14:52,950
cures for cancer because so far as we

305
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:54,899
can find out there is no such thing

306
00:15:02,389 --> 00:14:57,600
there is no alternative cure for cancer

307
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:02,399
and when I asked a question of everyone

308
00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:05,850
in the story here's the golden wand you

309
00:15:10,730 --> 00:15:08,310
can do whatever you like about this

310
00:15:13,190 --> 00:15:10,740
situation what's the one thing you'd

311
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:13,200
want to do I was expecting to say okay

312
00:15:19,250 --> 00:15:16,890
let's ban naturopaths and homeopaths and

313
00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:19,260
whoever thinks they can cure cancer

314
00:15:25,670 --> 00:15:22,830
let's just ban them in fact they all

315
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:25,680
said we want them to come forward with

316
00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:28,770
data we want to know what's happening we

317
00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:31,020
want to know what they're doing we want

318
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:33,300
to know how successful they are we also

319
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:35,730
want to know about their failures so

320
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:38,730
that in future if a cancer patient wants

321
00:15:44,690 --> 00:15:41,370
to try an alternative therapy they can

322
00:15:47,180 --> 00:15:44,700
go into it with an educated view that

323
00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:47,190
this is what you can expect this is

324
00:15:53,060 --> 00:15:50,760
what's likely to be the outcome and so

325
00:15:55,460 --> 00:15:53,070
the patient is empowered to make an

326
00:15:57,860 --> 00:15:55,470
informed decision if you take

327
00:16:00,680 --> 00:15:57,870
conventional therapies that is all

328
00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:00,690
explained to you at the outset what the

329
00:16:05,210 --> 00:16:02,700
side effects are going to be how long

330
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:05,220
the course is going to take what your

331
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:07,680
prognosis is for taking that particular

332
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:10,290
course of action and the reason why they

333
00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:11,970
can do that is because they keep

334
00:16:18,019 --> 00:16:14,940
detailed records so really what the

335
00:16:21,410 --> 00:16:18,029
practitioners are saying is tell us what

336
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:21,420
you guys are up to tell us how well it's

337
00:16:28,699 --> 00:16:24,480
going or otherwise so that patients can

338
00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:28,709
make an informed choice yes so that

339
00:16:33,769 --> 00:16:31,230
sounds like a very good skeptical

340
00:16:35,449 --> 00:16:33,779
approach I mean that's a that's all what

341
00:16:37,970 --> 00:16:35,459
skepticism is about isn't it it's

342
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:37,980
present me with your evidence and let's

343
00:16:43,389 --> 00:16:40,170
evaluate the evidence and get to an

344
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:43,399
evidence-based decision or outcome

345
00:16:49,190 --> 00:16:47,040
exactly exactly and i should say it's

346
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:49,200
intriguing that you know the stories

347
00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:50,160
only being up

348
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:53,759
an hour or so and already I've had one

349
00:16:58,579 --> 00:16:56,370
person phone me up and make a complaint

350
00:17:01,610 --> 00:16:58,589
that I didn't have any alternative

351
00:17:04,610 --> 00:17:01,620
practitioners in the story and I said

352
00:17:07,819 --> 00:17:04,620
that's not through want of trying I did

353
00:17:10,309 --> 00:17:07,829
actually approach a few various

354
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:10,319
naturopaths homeopaths and a few other

355
00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:12,959
practitioners who claim to be able to

356
00:17:19,100 --> 00:17:15,360
cure cancer and invited them to come

357
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:19,110
into the story but I did stress that if

358
00:17:24,289 --> 00:17:21,510
you come into the story I want you to

359
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:24,299
bring data and evidence I don't want

360
00:17:29,779 --> 00:17:26,730
anecdotes I want data and evidence of

361
00:17:31,810 --> 00:17:29,789
what you do and how successful or

362
00:17:35,090 --> 00:17:31,820
otherwise it was and they all declined

363
00:17:37,899 --> 00:17:35,100
to come on camera that's very telling

364
00:17:42,020 --> 00:17:37,909
isn't it what are the requirements under

365
00:17:44,980 --> 00:17:42,030
Australian regulations of alternative

366
00:17:47,090 --> 00:17:44,990
medicine or therapies practitioners

367
00:17:51,789 --> 00:17:47,100
advertising treatments and cures for

368
00:17:55,399 --> 00:17:51,799
cancer you cannot make a medical claim

369
00:17:59,870 --> 00:17:55,409
that is not supported by evidence in

370
00:18:03,110 --> 00:17:59,880
advertising you cannot in theory in

371
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:03,120
Australia say you can cure cancer if you

372
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:05,010
cannot demonstrate that you can actually

373
00:18:12,620 --> 00:18:09,450
do that but the internet and the online

374
00:18:16,370 --> 00:18:12,630
environment is so flexible and pliable

375
00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:16,380
that you can put up a web page which

376
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:19,980
implies that by eating apricot kernels

377
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:24,210
you can leave the symptoms or assist in

378
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:26,850
the recovery process from cancer you

379
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:29,250
know you can you can word it in ways

380
00:18:35,090 --> 00:18:31,230
that makes it sound like you've got a

381
00:18:38,149 --> 00:18:35,100
cure when in first you haven't so using

382
00:18:39,919 --> 00:18:38,159
using weasel words as they say to give

383
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:39,929
to give the person looking at it the

384
00:18:44,810 --> 00:18:42,210
vibe of the thing so to speak exactly

385
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:44,820
exactly and you can also you know you

386
00:18:50,810 --> 00:18:47,090
can put up and there are endless

387
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:50,820
anecdotes of various naturopaths in

388
00:18:57,049 --> 00:18:54,330
particular saying here's this person who

389
00:19:00,169 --> 00:18:57,059
presented to me with this cancer and I

390
00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:00,179
gave them x y&z and here they are all

391
00:19:04,779 --> 00:19:00,710
better

392
00:19:08,649 --> 00:19:04,789
you know anecdotes are not data you know

393
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:08,659
how for a start we don't know what else

394
00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:11,600
that particular case involved maybe they

395
00:19:16,149 --> 00:19:13,520
were having conventional treatments as

396
00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:16,159
well we don't know maybe it was a cancer

397
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:18,049
that they would naturally respond to did

398
00:19:24,610 --> 00:19:19,870
they even have cancer in the first place

399
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:24,620
but also where are the stories of well I

400
00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:28,490
tried this on Joe Blow and he died

401
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:33,440
anyway we it is important to record your

402
00:19:38,980 --> 00:19:35,600
failures as it is to record your

403
00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:38,990
successes in order to be able to make a

404
00:19:43,779 --> 00:19:41,840
realistic assessment as to the efficacy

405
00:19:47,470 --> 00:19:43,789
of any treatment that you want to put

406
00:19:50,169 --> 00:19:47,480
forward recently jussayin schoo and her

407
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:50,179
mother both succumbed to their cancers

408
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:52,730
by not only for going conventional

409
00:19:58,990 --> 00:19:56,720
medicine but actually promoting the

410
00:20:01,389 --> 00:19:59,000
alternative therapies amongst a huge

411
00:20:03,250 --> 00:20:01,399
huge following with and so I guess

412
00:20:06,490 --> 00:20:03,260
that's another thing where social media

413
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:06,500
has has had a big influence on this

414
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:10,159
would you say yeah and our front and the

415
00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:14,090
story you know the points made that this

416
00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:17,710
is probably getting worse as a situation

417
00:20:24,610 --> 00:20:20,510
largely because of social media and

418
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:24,620
access to not only proposed alternative

419
00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:27,770
therapies but also to case studies of

420
00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:30,200
people who think that they have been

421
00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:33,830
cured by alternative killers and we go

422
00:20:38,529 --> 00:20:36,049
into a few of the higher profile

423
00:20:40,419 --> 00:20:38,539
versions there we look at Steve Jobs we

424
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:40,429
do look at jessica James Cowan her

425
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:44,210
mother Sharon where the prime in my in

426
00:20:51,460 --> 00:20:48,370
my eyes occurs with the ants go case is

427
00:20:54,549 --> 00:20:51,470
where she convinced her mother when her

428
00:20:56,139 --> 00:20:54,559
mother developed breast cancer to not go

429
00:20:58,060 --> 00:20:56,149
through the conventional route but to go

430
00:21:01,870 --> 00:20:58,070
through gears and therapy which involves

431
00:21:05,409 --> 00:21:01,880
coffee enemas and good nutrition and the

432
00:21:10,090 --> 00:21:05,419
assessment from practitioners in breast

433
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:10,100
cancer is that if Jessica's mum Sharon

434
00:21:14,140 --> 00:21:13,130
had gone through conventional therapies

435
00:21:15,970 --> 00:21:14,150
they probably

436
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:15,980
could have cured her particular type of

437
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:19,520
cancer instead she went through years in

438
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:21,650
therapy and she died I think it was

439
00:21:26,830 --> 00:21:24,170
within two years i had as tragic isn't

440
00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:26,840
it just tragic so tell me where can

441
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:28,880
people go to see this special

442
00:21:32,770 --> 00:21:30,650
investigation and to find out other

443
00:21:34,570 --> 00:21:32,780
things yeah look if it happens in

444
00:21:36,580 --> 00:21:34,580
science it happens on Australia's

445
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:36,590
science channel if anyone listening

446
00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:39,110
hasn't already bookmarked Australia

447
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:42,950
science TV and is not a regular visitor

448
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:45,130
then this is your opportunity to do so

449
00:21:53,620 --> 00:21:49,730
if you go to Australia science TV you

450
00:21:56,020 --> 00:21:53,630
will find the cancer story is featured

451
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:56,030
on the front page at the moment and a

452
00:22:02,470 --> 00:21:59,360
whole raft of brilliant material which

453
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:02,480
you know we stand by our integrity on

454
00:22:07,780 --> 00:22:05,510
the science content of everything that

455
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:07,790
we produce everything that we run

456
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:10,880
through Australia's science channel so

457
00:22:16,930 --> 00:22:13,810
you'll get involved become part of the

458
00:22:19,330 --> 00:22:16,940
action as I like to say it's a social

459
00:22:22,660 --> 00:22:19,340
media movement swipe right for science

460
00:22:25,810 --> 00:22:22,670
haha very good all right well thank you

461
00:22:28,540 --> 00:22:25,820
so much for joining us and look forward

462
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:28,550
to this story seeing this story get a

463
00:22:32,860 --> 00:22:30,290
whole lot more coverage in the in the

464
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:32,870
coming days fantastic it's a story that

465
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:34,970
needs to be told as wide and as broadly

466
00:22:42,220 --> 00:22:37,610
as possible very much so thank you dr.

467
00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:42,230
Willis always a pleasure that was dr.

468
00:22:48,370 --> 00:22:44,840
Paul Willis from Australia's science

469
00:22:50,830 --> 00:22:48,380
channel and now here is the audio from

470
00:22:59,730 --> 00:22:50,840
the video they produced called no

471
00:23:08,140 --> 00:23:04,240
last year 1207 Australians were killed

472
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:08,150
on our roads it's a national tragedy but

473
00:23:12,910 --> 00:23:10,010
there's another national tragedy that is

474
00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:12,920
as big or perhaps even bigger than the

475
00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:15,260
roads are you can't help but have a

476
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:17,390
sinking feeling that maybe we're this

477
00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:22,610
patient is now didn't have to be you can

478
00:23:29,860 --> 00:23:25,030
have a woman present with a really small

479
00:23:31,810 --> 00:23:29,870
cancer that grows from 10 millimeters to

480
00:23:36,370 --> 00:23:31,820
a fun gating cancer and I've seen this

481
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:36,380
happen within six months I know we can

482
00:23:41,070 --> 00:23:38,710
avoid that

483
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:41,080
this special investigation by

484
00:23:45,090 --> 00:23:42,640
Australia's Science Channel were

485
00:23:46,980 --> 00:23:45,100
revealed in every year thousands of

486
00:23:49,649 --> 00:23:46,990
Australians are suffering and dying

487
00:23:56,810 --> 00:23:49,659
prematurely because they try alternative

488
00:24:01,980 --> 00:23:59,789
Karen Redmond is the breast care nurse

489
00:24:03,899 --> 00:24:01,990
practitioner at the Queen Elizabeth

490
00:24:07,830 --> 00:24:03,909
Hospital in Adelaide where she nurses

491
00:24:10,649 --> 00:24:07,840
women with breast cancer I focus on the

492
00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:10,659
surgical episode of their care but I've

493
00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:13,750
been doing this for 15 years so I have a

494
00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:17,529
number of long-term patients karen is

495
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:19,750
increasingly concerned with cases where

496
00:24:25,619 --> 00:24:22,809
women receive a diagnosis of cancer then

497
00:24:28,710 --> 00:24:25,629
disappear from the records we do see

498
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:28,720
people coming in that are lost to

499
00:24:35,519 --> 00:24:32,490
follow-up or indeed refuse treatment

500
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:35,529
David Walsh is the head of the general

501
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:37,690
breast and endocrine surgical unit at

502
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:40,570
the Queen Elizabeth one of the things

503
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:43,570
about cancer in particular is that it it

504
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:45,850
the best outcomes clearly come from

505
00:24:52,919 --> 00:24:50,370
using team approach using a specific

506
00:24:55,649 --> 00:24:52,929
batch of treatments to get the the

507
00:24:59,129 --> 00:24:55,659
ultimate outcome for individuals cancer

508
00:25:00,960 --> 00:24:59,139
so once diagnosed with cancer is there

509
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:00,970
any compulsion for the patient to

510
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:03,730
undergo medical treatment no there isn't

511
00:25:09,180 --> 00:25:06,159
but there is a compulsion for us to give

512
00:25:11,730 --> 00:25:09,190
you as the patient sitting in front of

513
00:25:14,610 --> 00:25:11,740
us the best options that we can provide

514
00:25:17,310 --> 00:25:14,620
we would certainly see patients every

515
00:25:19,499 --> 00:25:17,320
year who having been told of a diagnosis

516
00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:19,509
given a treatment plan will disengage

517
00:25:25,230 --> 00:25:21,870
from that process and seek and

518
00:25:27,389 --> 00:25:25,240
alternative means of care our experience

519
00:25:29,549 --> 00:25:27,399
has been that proportion is increasing I

520
00:25:31,019 --> 00:25:29,559
think it's probably because things like

521
00:25:34,019 --> 00:25:31,029
social media and the Internet allow

522
00:25:36,539 --> 00:25:34,029
people to see possibilities outside of

523
00:25:39,539 --> 00:25:36,549
what we're offering and it's never been

524
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:39,549
easier to look at alternative treatments

525
00:25:45,810 --> 00:25:43,450
and to explore them a quick search of

526
00:25:48,090 --> 00:25:45,820
the internet reveals many alternative

527
00:25:50,369 --> 00:25:48,100
treatments and cures for cancer as well

528
00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:50,379
as warnings about when such treatments

529
00:25:55,409 --> 00:25:53,350
go wrong and there have been some

530
00:25:57,180 --> 00:25:55,419
high-profile cases in recent years where

531
00:25:59,549 --> 00:25:57,190
people have pursued alternative

532
00:26:01,499 --> 00:25:59,559
treatments for their cancers only to

533
00:26:05,830 --> 00:26:01,509
eventually die from them

534
00:26:08,049 --> 00:26:05,840
in October 2011 Steve Jobs co-founder of

535
00:26:12,009 --> 00:26:08,059
Apple computers died from pancreatic

536
00:26:14,019 --> 00:26:12,019
cancer at the age of 56 he delayed

537
00:26:16,659 --> 00:26:14,029
conventional treatments for nine months

538
00:26:19,149 --> 00:26:16,669
to pursue acupuncture special fruit

539
00:26:21,450 --> 00:26:19,159
juices spiritualists and other

540
00:26:23,889 --> 00:26:21,460
treatments he found on the internet

541
00:26:26,529 --> 00:26:23,899
medical professionals claimed they may

542
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:26,539
have extended his life or even cured his

543
00:26:32,529 --> 00:26:28,730
particular cancer if they'd been allowed

544
00:26:35,139 --> 00:26:32,539
to act early enough Athena star woman

545
00:26:37,419 --> 00:26:35,149
born Helen roseum was an Australian

546
00:26:41,409 --> 00:26:37,429
spiritualist who built a global business

547
00:26:43,210 --> 00:26:41,419
as an astrologer and author she rejected

548
00:26:46,649 --> 00:26:43,220
medical treatment for her breast cancer

549
00:26:48,940 --> 00:26:46,659
in favor of mind-body healing after

550
00:26:51,129 --> 00:26:48,950
seven months of herbal remedies

551
00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:51,139
meditation and other alternative

552
00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:53,120
techniques she admitted herself to

553
00:26:57,999 --> 00:26:55,370
hospital suffering from unbearable pain

554
00:27:00,490 --> 00:26:58,009
but by then her condition was

555
00:27:05,529 --> 00:27:00,500
untreatable she died of breast cancer

556
00:27:07,659 --> 00:27:05,539
aged 59 Jessica ansco the

557
00:27:11,470 --> 00:27:07,669
self-proclaimed wellness warrior died of

558
00:27:13,629 --> 00:27:11,480
her cancer in February 2015 she rejected

559
00:27:15,970 --> 00:27:13,639
medical surgery for her particularly

560
00:27:17,980 --> 00:27:15,980
rare and nasty cancer preferring

561
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:17,990
something called gearson therapy

562
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:20,480
involving enhanced nutrition and coffee

563
00:27:25,330 --> 00:27:23,330
enemas while the medical profession are

564
00:27:27,820 --> 00:27:25,340
uncertain about how much more they could

565
00:27:29,950 --> 00:27:27,830
have done for Jessica given her unusual

566
00:27:31,930 --> 00:27:29,960
and aggressive cancer they could have

567
00:27:34,210 --> 00:27:31,940
saved the life of Jessica's mother if

568
00:27:36,519 --> 00:27:34,220
only she had followed medical treatments

569
00:27:39,460 --> 00:27:36,529
instead of the alternatives offered by

570
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:39,470
her daughter Sharon ansco died of an

571
00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:41,600
otherwise treatable breast cancer in

572
00:27:51,580 --> 00:27:48,740
October 2013 professor ianova is the

573
00:27:54,399 --> 00:27:51,590
director at the samson institute and a

574
00:27:58,509 --> 00:27:54,409
long-term cancer researcher oh there's

575
00:28:01,480 --> 00:27:58,519
always people that reject conventional

576
00:28:05,619 --> 00:28:01,490
treatments but because cancer is is a

577
00:28:07,299 --> 00:28:05,629
multi modality disease in terms of

578
00:28:09,490 --> 00:28:07,309
treatment where you might need surgery

579
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:09,500
you might need rodeo therapy you might

580
00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:11,840
need some sort of chemotherapy or

581
00:28:16,370 --> 00:28:14,310
systemic therapy then

582
00:28:18,380 --> 00:28:16,380
you might select one part of the

583
00:28:20,330 --> 00:28:18,390
treatment but reject the others so

584
00:28:23,930 --> 00:28:20,340
there's many decisions you have to make

585
00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:23,940
along the course of a cancer journey in

586
00:28:30,110 --> 00:28:26,340
a number of cases women are upfront

587
00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:30,120
about their views and certainly a number

588
00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:32,340
of the patients that I say go off and

589
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:36,000
seek alternative therapies they may go

590
00:28:42,190 --> 00:28:39,330
to you know a health sort of retreat

591
00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:42,200
type Center they may be seeing

592
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:46,020
naturopaths they may even be having

593
00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:48,450
family members treat them but

594
00:28:53,630 --> 00:28:50,760
effectively they're not having effective

595
00:28:55,550 --> 00:28:53,640
treatment for breast cancer we do need

596
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:55,560
to be quite clear here that when we're

597
00:28:59,690 --> 00:28:57,690
talking about cancer there is a

598
00:29:03,140 --> 00:28:59,700
difference between complementary

599
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:03,150
therapies and alternative treatments we

600
00:29:07,550 --> 00:29:06,090
encourage patients to explore possible

601
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:07,560
treatments because we don't have all the

602
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:09,570
answers and we would like to add them

603
00:29:13,970 --> 00:29:11,490
into a conventional plan and that's what

604
00:29:16,940 --> 00:29:13,980
I think is a complementary treatment the

605
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:16,950
idea that you have to completely leave

606
00:29:21,170 --> 00:29:19,770
conventional treatments behind and that

607
00:29:23,450 --> 00:29:21,180
these alternative treatments will only

608
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:23,460
work in isolation and will be

609
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:26,610
handicapped or or or cease being

610
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:28,050
effective because of conventional

611
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:29,250
treatment that's what I think is really

612
00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:32,010
the dangerous idea some of them will be

613
00:29:38,150 --> 00:29:34,620
using therapies to complement standard

614
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:38,160
therapy the more dangerous issue is

615
00:29:47,570 --> 00:29:43,130
where patients elect to substitute a an

616
00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:47,580
unknown therapy for a evidence-based

617
00:29:53,870 --> 00:29:51,510
therapy why would a patient given a

618
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:53,880
diagnosis of life-threatening cancer

619
00:29:58,010 --> 00:29:56,250
turn away from conventional medical

620
00:30:00,590 --> 00:29:58,020
treatments and seek out alternative

621
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:00,600
therapies I've come to Macquarie

622
00:30:05,330 --> 00:30:02,730
University to meet associate professor

623
00:30:08,330 --> 00:30:05,340
Maria Kangas who has conducted extensive

624
00:30:11,150 --> 00:30:08,340
research around the psychology of cancer

625
00:30:15,950 --> 00:30:11,160
patients there's a multitude of factors

626
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:15,960
as to why that may be the case we don't

627
00:30:19,940 --> 00:30:17,520
have a lot of research in the field

628
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:19,950
there's some publications in the

629
00:30:25,730 --> 00:30:22,710
international literature indicating that

630
00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:25,740
it could be a person's personal values

631
00:30:30,430 --> 00:30:27,470
their belief system

632
00:30:34,029 --> 00:30:30,440
it could be an emotional fear factor in

633
00:30:36,820 --> 00:30:34,039
terms of their understanding as to what

634
00:30:38,620 --> 00:30:36,830
the treatments going to entail fear of

635
00:30:40,630 --> 00:30:38,630
the side effects and the repercussions

636
00:30:43,539 --> 00:30:40,640
that will have on their quality of life

637
00:30:45,159 --> 00:30:43,549
it could also have an impact as to

638
00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:45,169
whether they've witnessed other close

639
00:30:50,220 --> 00:30:47,270
family members or friends going through

640
00:30:53,710 --> 00:30:50,230
such a similar ordeal and not wanting to

641
00:30:56,620 --> 00:30:53,720
experience a similar situation or fear

642
00:30:59,140 --> 00:30:56,630
of burdening families it could also be

643
00:31:00,970 --> 00:30:59,150
the faith and trust that they have in

644
00:31:02,770 --> 00:31:00,980
the medical system if they've

645
00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:02,780
established a good relationship and

646
00:31:07,899 --> 00:31:06,070
rapport with the treatment team and

647
00:31:10,570 --> 00:31:07,909
whether they've even had negative

648
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:10,580
experiences with the health system and

649
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:13,330
not necessarily linked to cancer and

650
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:16,610
surely a diagnosis of cancer must be

651
00:31:22,990 --> 00:31:20,090
utterly terrifying if it's come out of

652
00:31:25,510 --> 00:31:23,000
the blue and unexpected usually shock

653
00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:25,520
and dismay are quite common there's the

654
00:31:30,270 --> 00:31:27,470
fear it's understandable the fear of the

655
00:31:33,250 --> 00:31:30,280
unknown suddenly it's a mortality issue

656
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:33,260
some actually are relieved because they

657
00:31:38,140 --> 00:31:36,350
may be having six type of symptoms or

658
00:31:40,659 --> 00:31:38,150
not feeling well or not quite right for

659
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:40,669
a number of months and I've had patients

660
00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:42,650
who are relieved to hear that something

661
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:44,390
definitely is wrong with them and there

662
00:31:49,659 --> 00:31:46,960
is potential treatment options for them

663
00:31:51,310 --> 00:31:49,669
professor alva literally wrote the book

664
00:31:54,669 --> 00:31:51,320
on complementary and alternative

665
00:31:57,820 --> 00:31:54,679
medicines in cancer treatment what we

666
00:32:00,159 --> 00:31:57,830
wanted to do was present the range of

667
00:32:02,890 --> 00:32:00,169
opinions in the one book that we wanted

668
00:32:05,919 --> 00:32:02,900
the perspectives of practitioners that

669
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:05,929
the Deltan in alternate medicines and we

670
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:08,000
wanted the perspectives of the

671
00:32:12,970 --> 00:32:10,970
scientific community we understand the

672
00:32:15,250 --> 00:32:12,980
desperation but we don't want people to

673
00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:15,260
harm themselves and the main question

674
00:32:21,159 --> 00:32:18,470
one needs to ask is can any of these

675
00:32:24,669 --> 00:32:21,169
alternative therapies actually cure

676
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:24,679
cancer so that's the problem I can tell

677
00:32:27,909 --> 00:32:26,510
you the efficacy of all the treatments

678
00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:27,919
that we would deliver through our

679
00:32:33,070 --> 00:32:30,230
institution and we have to demonstrate

680
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:33,080
that there is a demonstrably scientific

681
00:32:38,399 --> 00:32:35,600
benefit in other words more people have

682
00:32:41,149 --> 00:32:38,409
to benefit from it than do not the

683
00:32:45,259 --> 00:32:41,159
alternative treatments are usually based

684
00:32:47,629 --> 00:32:45,269
on claims based upon testimonials and we

685
00:32:49,489 --> 00:32:47,639
are continually asking to see where is

686
00:32:53,060 --> 00:32:49,499
the scientific evidence that a proposed

687
00:32:55,729 --> 00:32:53,070
plan of care has a benefit they haven't

688
00:32:59,269 --> 00:32:55,739
actually been subjected to any sort of

689
00:33:02,149 --> 00:32:59,279
formal trials so usually there's no

690
00:33:03,769 --> 00:33:02,159
evidence beyond a series of anecdotes

691
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:03,779
and the trouble with a series of

692
00:33:09,469 --> 00:33:06,960
anecdotes is even if something does work

693
00:33:12,619 --> 00:33:09,479
for one person it's very important to

694
00:33:15,409 --> 00:33:12,629
know whether it'll work one out of two

695
00:33:17,899 --> 00:33:15,419
one out of ten one out of 100 one out of

696
00:33:20,629 --> 00:33:17,909
ten thousand times because something

697
00:33:22,759 --> 00:33:20,639
that works one out of ten thats charged

698
00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:22,769
that doesn't mean everyone should take

699
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:26,580
it the lack of record-keeping makes it

700
00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:29,039
difficult to follow just how efficacious

701
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:31,529
alternative therapies are for cancer

702
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:34,799
treatments the literature is thin but it

703
00:33:40,820 --> 00:33:37,110
makes grim reading

704
00:33:42,860 --> 00:33:40,830
this study in Alberta Canada track 185

705
00:33:45,230 --> 00:33:42,870
breast cancer patients who refused

706
00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:45,240
medical treatments the five-year

707
00:33:50,299 --> 00:33:48,240
survival rate was at 43.2 percent

708
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:50,309
compared to eighty one point nine

709
00:33:56,330 --> 00:33:52,710
percent for those who underwent medical

710
00:33:58,190 --> 00:33:56,340
treatments this Swiss study found the

711
00:34:00,350 --> 00:33:58,200
10-year survival rate for women who

712
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:00,360
refused surgery for breast cancer was

713
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:02,910
around half that of those women who had

714
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:07,890
the surgery this US study followed 47

715
00:34:12,109 --> 00:34:09,810
breast cancer patients who refused or

716
00:34:14,389 --> 00:34:12,119
delayed conventional treatments and took

717
00:34:17,359 --> 00:34:14,399
a variety of alternative therapies they

718
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:17,369
all greatly increased the risk of dying

719
00:34:24,349 --> 00:34:22,050
from their diseases within 10 years that

720
00:34:25,879 --> 00:34:24,359
maps are nicely into my understanding

721
00:34:28,909 --> 00:34:25,889
the international literature on this

722
00:34:31,690 --> 00:34:28,919
where again it confirms there is not

723
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:31,700
that much a prospective record-keeping

724
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:36,810
and in when they do take up alternative

725
00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:38,609
treatments what is their underlying

726
00:34:43,129 --> 00:34:41,520
motivation and what proportion then come

727
00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:43,139
back to conventional treatment when it

728
00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:47,460
doesn't work sometimes the drop-off

729
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:50,310
patients re-enter the hospital seeking

730
00:34:55,070 --> 00:34:52,649
conventional treatment well they clearly

731
00:34:57,650 --> 00:34:55,080
come back usually when things are going

732
00:35:00,920 --> 00:34:57,660
poorly because that is when they

733
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:00,930
recognize that they have symptoms or

734
00:35:07,099 --> 00:35:03,930
situation where they need help I've seen

735
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:07,109
a number of women come back I can recall

736
00:35:13,730 --> 00:35:11,520
a number that have come back between 36

737
00:35:16,130 --> 00:35:13,740
or 12 months after we've told them they

738
00:35:18,050 --> 00:35:16,140
have a breast cancer I've also seen

739
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:18,060
women come back a number of years later

740
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:22,050
they have a large fun gating saw or mass

741
00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:25,050
on their chest it's very difficult to

742
00:35:29,810 --> 00:35:26,790
dress from a nursing point of view and

743
00:35:31,460 --> 00:35:29,820
they also have evidence of cancer

744
00:35:34,220 --> 00:35:31,470
elsewhere in their body and I've

745
00:35:37,580 --> 00:35:34,230
personally SAT with women that have just

746
00:35:40,250 --> 00:35:37,590
cried for half an hour wild and cried

747
00:35:42,740 --> 00:35:40,260
for half an hour because they're in such

748
00:35:46,130 --> 00:35:42,750
a mess from what was a treatable cancer

749
00:35:48,590 --> 00:35:46,140
a number of years ago to now being witty

750
00:35:50,940 --> 00:35:48,600
star and it's heartbreaking when they

751
00:35:53,730 --> 00:35:50,950
come back or if they don't come back you

752
00:35:57,150 --> 00:35:53,740
don't know what's happened to them so

753
00:35:59,310 --> 00:35:57,160
how big is this problem I'd anticipate

754
00:36:01,020 --> 00:35:59,320
between three and five percent and

755
00:36:03,690 --> 00:36:01,030
that's a bit of a guesstimate we don't

756
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:03,700
have accurate numbers but based on the

757
00:36:08,819 --> 00:36:05,770
people I've seen over those years I'd

758
00:36:10,650 --> 00:36:08,829
guess it would be around there once

759
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:10,660
again the lack of record-keeping makes

760
00:36:15,540 --> 00:36:12,730
it difficult to track just how big the

761
00:36:17,339 --> 00:36:15,550
problem is but if between three and five

762
00:36:19,710 --> 00:36:17,349
percent of women diagnosed with breast

763
00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:19,720
cancer do not show up for conventional

764
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:23,950
treatments that will be around 643 women

765
00:36:28,859 --> 00:36:26,530
of the estimated sixteen thousand and

766
00:36:34,020 --> 00:36:28,869
eighty four new cases of breast cancer

767
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:34,030
diagnosed in Australia in 2016 if these

768
00:36:42,060 --> 00:36:37,290
proportions hold true across all of the

769
00:36:48,690 --> 00:36:42,070
130,000 466 new cancers estimated to be

770
00:36:51,450 --> 00:36:48,700
diagnosed in 2016 then around 5218 cases

771
00:36:55,290 --> 00:36:51,460
will not receive appropriate treatments

772
00:37:01,800 --> 00:36:55,300
this may lead to around 1000 premature

773
00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:01,810
deaths every year perhaps surprisingly

774
00:37:06,569 --> 00:37:04,089
none of the researchers and cancer work

775
00:37:09,059 --> 00:37:06,579
as we spoke to want to see a banning of

776
00:37:10,740 --> 00:37:09,069
dubious alternative cancer treatments or

777
00:37:13,260 --> 00:37:10,750
making conventional treatments

778
00:37:15,150 --> 00:37:13,270
compulsory so it's one thing for me to

779
00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:15,160
say I've got 15 years experience in

780
00:37:18,839 --> 00:37:17,140
cancer care and yes I've seen these

781
00:37:20,730 --> 00:37:18,849
people and I believe these these

782
00:37:23,670 --> 00:37:20,740
treatments don't work if you had

783
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:23,680
properly constructed randomized control

784
00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:25,630
trials for example you'd be able to

785
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:27,220
you'd be able to have really strong

786
00:37:30,750 --> 00:37:28,810
evidence what we don't have any evidence

787
00:37:32,579 --> 00:37:30,760
around whether these these treatments

788
00:37:34,770 --> 00:37:32,589
work or don't part from our expert

789
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:34,780
opinion which is quite strong I think

790
00:37:38,339 --> 00:37:36,640
that that ultimately what an individual

791
00:37:40,349 --> 00:37:38,349
has for their Cancer Care is up to them

792
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:40,359
and they will have their own views and

793
00:37:45,089 --> 00:37:42,250
styles that suit them and and and

794
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:45,099
situations will change what I'm really

795
00:37:49,109 --> 00:37:47,530
saying is not to compel anyone to not do

796
00:37:51,690 --> 00:37:49,119
something or do something but I'm really

797
00:37:54,089 --> 00:37:51,700
saying that if you are offering cancer

798
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:54,099
treatments then you should be able to

799
00:37:58,890 --> 00:37:57,010
give data about your outcomes not just

800
00:38:01,290 --> 00:37:58,900
one or two cases not just your

801
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:01,300
successful cases but really produce the

802
00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:04,720
evidence as we do in

803
00:38:09,450 --> 00:38:07,030
conventional care system to show that

804
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:09,460
this treatment is of benefit so I think

805
00:38:14,070 --> 00:38:12,370
rather than get rid of something or ban

806
00:38:17,310 --> 00:38:14,080
something I think it's a matter of

807
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:17,320
empowering the the consumer if you like

808
00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:20,650
by making them more aware of the sort of

809
00:38:27,420 --> 00:38:24,300
choices they have but make no mistake

810
00:38:30,420 --> 00:38:27,430
there is no alternative cure for cancer

811
00:38:54,780 --> 00:38:30,430
and wasting time trying to find one is

812
00:38:57,450 --> 00:38:54,790
all too often a fatal mistake do you

813
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:57,460
think ink and you'll pass thinking the

814
00:39:04,440 --> 00:38:59,280
people who brought you dr. Neil deGrasse

815
00:39:07,530 --> 00:39:04,450
Tyson James Randi dr. Ben Goldacre dr.

816
00:39:10,020 --> 00:39:07,540
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817
00:39:13,770 --> 00:39:10,030
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820
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821
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822
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824
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825
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clever present for friends and family

829
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:42,070
looking to explore smart answers two big

830
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:44,290
questions a highlight of the coming

831
00:39:50,610 --> 00:39:47,410
season is none other than named Jane

832
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:50,620
Goodall for more information and to get

833
00:40:09,120 --> 00:39:54,970
your annual pass visit think inc dot org

834
00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:14,920
awesome awesome let's all take this with

835
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:23,270
a grain of salt he's around second what

836
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:26,210
are we doing okay well I'm going to

837
00:40:29,290 --> 00:40:27,710
stick into asking something no um beat

838
00:40:31,150 --> 00:40:29,300
you being in to meet I know you're being

839
00:40:36,970 --> 00:40:31,160
used I didn't do that you used to being

840
00:40:38,589 --> 00:40:36,980
on the other side hi hello how are you

841
00:40:41,099 --> 00:40:38,599
I'm good I just talked over you when you

842
00:40:43,990 --> 00:40:41,109
said my name I feel bad Harrison Tafoya

843
00:40:46,690 --> 00:40:44,000
you pronounce it right I usually give

844
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:46,700
them grits and Ozzy's a pass cuz they

845
00:40:52,420 --> 00:40:50,450
called me cara cara yeah but thank you

846
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:52,430
for telling me Kara I listen to the

847
00:40:55,510 --> 00:40:54,170
podcast is what we do I can I pronounce

848
00:40:58,020 --> 00:40:55,520
your name correctly I don't know if I've

849
00:41:00,940 --> 00:40:58,030
ever set it out that Iran yeah that's

850
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:00,950
close enough okay would you do like eat

851
00:41:09,309 --> 00:41:03,650
on like that was like no no yeah iran

852
00:41:11,589 --> 00:41:09,319
tehran iran good so you're a science

853
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:11,599
communicator you've been on the skeptic

854
00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:13,730
skeptics guide to the universe now for

855
00:41:18,849 --> 00:41:16,730
how long I have no idea um over a year

856
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:18,859
but I don't I'd have to look at my

857
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:21,920
calendar so i think most listeners to

858
00:41:26,319 --> 00:41:24,650
the skeptic sound mm-hmm will probably

859
00:41:27,099 --> 00:41:26,329
also listen to the script Otago

860
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:27,109
University

861
00:41:31,150 --> 00:41:29,119
you will know about your duties day but

862
00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:31,160
what else you do what else do I do well

863
00:41:37,989 --> 00:41:33,680
I do I have a podcast also called talk

864
00:41:39,579 --> 00:41:37,999
dirty which I started I don't know how

865
00:41:43,390 --> 00:41:39,589
long ago three maybe three years ago

866
00:41:45,069 --> 00:41:43,400
before i joined skeptics guide i think

867
00:41:46,210 --> 00:41:45,079
i'm coming up on episode like 130

868
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:46,220
something like that where I do

869
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:50,049
one-on-one conversations with mostly

870
00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:52,249
scientists sometimes people who

871
00:41:56,859 --> 00:41:53,569
skeptical or the Atheist movement

872
00:41:58,930 --> 00:41:56,869
sometimes people who work for you know

873
00:42:00,249 --> 00:41:58,940
social justice civil liberties things

874
00:42:02,529 --> 00:42:00,259
like that and sometimes just people that

875
00:42:03,970 --> 00:42:02,539
I find interesting and I also you know

876
00:42:06,789 --> 00:42:03,980
my day job is that I work in in

877
00:42:10,059 --> 00:42:06,799
television generally hosting or

878
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:10,069
co-hosting different television show so

879
00:42:16,509 --> 00:42:12,970
any given time i'm working on 125

880
00:42:18,220 --> 00:42:16,519
prospects um the life of a freelancer

881
00:42:20,170 --> 00:42:18,230
you've been a science communicator for a

882
00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:20,180
while what's the background of the board

883
00:42:26,859 --> 00:42:22,430
uses communication yeah about I think

884
00:42:28,539 --> 00:42:26,869
seven eight years now um I came to LA

885
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:28,549
from New York but I was only in New York

886
00:42:31,359 --> 00:42:30,170
year prior to that I lived in Texas

887
00:42:33,729 --> 00:42:31,369
that's where I was born and raised I

888
00:42:35,799 --> 00:42:33,739
studied psychology for my undergrad

889
00:42:38,620 --> 00:42:35,809
psychology and philosophy was my minor

890
00:42:40,299 --> 00:42:38,630
and then I did neurobiology for my

891
00:42:42,849 --> 00:42:40,309
Master's I moved to New York to start a

892
00:42:45,549 --> 00:42:42,859
PhD in clinical neuropsychology and

893
00:42:47,319 --> 00:42:45,559
that's when I kind of realized that

894
00:42:49,839 --> 00:42:47,329
bench work maybe wasn't the future for

895
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:49,849
me I had been coming to Los Angeles for

896
00:42:54,249 --> 00:42:50,960
quite some time at that point and

897
00:42:55,359 --> 00:42:54,259
decided to try my hand at it I was kind

898
00:42:57,309 --> 00:42:55,369
of a weird experiment I always

899
00:42:59,109 --> 00:42:57,319
anticipated to just find a new lab and

900
00:43:01,660 --> 00:42:59,119
go back to school but I managed to get a

901
00:43:03,789 --> 00:43:01,670
few good gigs and it kept happening and

902
00:43:07,180 --> 00:43:03,799
kept happening and eventually kind of

903
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:07,190
became a full-time freelance job which

904
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:09,200
is anybody who you know is a freelancer

905
00:43:13,569 --> 00:43:11,359
especially in media knows it's a lot of

906
00:43:15,970 --> 00:43:13,579
working to work you know you might not

907
00:43:19,089 --> 00:43:15,980
be working every day but you're always

908
00:43:21,970 --> 00:43:19,099
working to get those you gigs it's feast

909
00:43:23,979 --> 00:43:21,980
and famine for sure back to the skeptic

910
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:23,989
I skeptics guide to the universe so just

911
00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:26,089
how how did you get to be on that trip I

912
00:43:31,779 --> 00:43:28,430
have no idea i think i met the jobs the

913
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:31,789
first time at tam a few years prior to

914
00:43:36,609 --> 00:43:34,910
actually joining the show obviously i

915
00:43:39,630 --> 00:43:36,619
knew of the skeptics guide to the

916
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:39,640
universe and i knew the guy

917
00:43:45,220 --> 00:43:41,810
loosely I knew them better once I met

918
00:43:47,890 --> 00:43:45,230
them J as everybody who knows Janos like

919
00:43:49,690 --> 00:43:47,900
when you meet Jay you instantly feel

920
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:49,700
like you've known him forever and so he

921
00:43:52,410 --> 00:43:51,050
always made me feel really comfortable

922
00:43:56,319 --> 00:43:52,420
like we had been friends for a long time

923
00:43:59,920 --> 00:43:56,329
um they had me on the show maybe twice

924
00:44:01,870 --> 00:43:59,930
if I'm remembering correctly um maybe

925
00:44:05,650 --> 00:44:01,880
once as a guest and maybe once as a

926
00:44:07,359 --> 00:44:05,660
fill-in co-host I had no idea at the

927
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:07,369
time but apparently it was a trial run

928
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:08,930
for them and they were trying to figure

929
00:44:14,170 --> 00:44:12,079
out who should be no vision yeah and I

930
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:14,180
didn't know no I didn't I didn't sign up

931
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:18,050
for that um yeah have fun it was great

932
00:44:21,460 --> 00:44:19,520
and I guess I passed yet they reached

933
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:21,470
out to me it was pretty funny when it

934
00:44:25,060 --> 00:44:23,599
was Jay and Steve on a skype call with

935
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:25,070
me and they are like look I've got

936
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:26,930
something very serious we want to talk

937
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:29,839
to you oh okay what am I do wrong um and

938
00:44:36,370 --> 00:44:33,050
then they offered me the spot and Ira

939
00:44:37,540 --> 00:44:36,380
meant Allah it felt really good so uh so

940
00:44:40,540 --> 00:44:37,550
yeah we're you enjoying one since then

941
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:40,550
oh my god yes and they make me feel like

942
00:44:45,579 --> 00:44:42,800
what like a novella like I feel like one

943
00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:45,589
of their sisters they have done they do

944
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:49,040
it's crazy anybody who like knows no you

945
00:44:53,650 --> 00:44:51,770
just they're just so welcoming mr. this

946
00:44:57,220 --> 00:44:53,660
there's something about this I mean when

947
00:44:59,200 --> 00:44:57,230
I go to Connecticut I like stayed let's

948
00:45:00,849 --> 00:44:59,210
see last time I was at her one one night

949
00:45:03,940 --> 00:45:00,859
I stayed or two nights maybe I stayed in

950
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:03,950
Jays basement um I fixed the light let

951
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:07,210
alone in the basement yeah oh thank you

952
00:45:13,270 --> 00:45:10,730
there's really comfortable and I was oh

953
00:45:15,339 --> 00:45:13,280
my gosh like bonding with Olivia so much

954
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:15,349
she's too much she's the cutest little

955
00:45:20,020 --> 00:45:17,690
panties hey I stayed over at evans house

956
00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:20,030
one night and snuggled with the dog I

957
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:21,560
mean there you know it's like your

958
00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:24,650
family and how much preparation do you

959
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:27,440
require mean each show is now in a bit

960
00:45:32,459 --> 00:45:29,450
but first of all I know that you record

961
00:45:37,390 --> 00:45:32,469
for Toby bug ya

962
00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:37,400
about three hours or chef once once the

963
00:45:42,939 --> 00:45:40,910
profanities are removed that's professor

964
00:45:45,189 --> 00:45:42,949
DS and all of them bickering the

965
00:45:48,039 --> 00:45:45,199
brotherly bickering it happens a lot

966
00:45:50,170 --> 00:45:48,049
preparations Ares week to week I mean it

967
00:45:53,170 --> 00:45:50,180
definitely depends on which story I've

968
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:53,180
chosen to report on usually what happens

969
00:45:56,769 --> 00:45:54,890
is that will record the show on a

970
00:45:58,029 --> 00:45:56,779
Wednesday night it'sit's later in

971
00:46:00,789 --> 00:45:58,039
Connecticut there are three hours ahead

972
00:46:02,079 --> 00:46:00,799
of me in LA so I record it I think four

973
00:46:04,660 --> 00:46:02,089
thirty in the afternoon for them at

974
00:46:06,099 --> 00:46:04,670
seven thirty wrap up by dinner time for

975
00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:06,109
me wrap up but the time they're ready to

976
00:46:11,499 --> 00:46:09,140
go to bed I'd say about on monday i will

977
00:46:13,420 --> 00:46:11,509
usually send an email to steve with some

978
00:46:15,249 --> 00:46:13,430
pitches with some story ideas that I've

979
00:46:19,630 --> 00:46:15,259
come across and some words that I think

980
00:46:21,789 --> 00:46:19,640
could be good Steve will either you know

981
00:46:23,199 --> 00:46:21,799
just approve or he'll delegate and say

982
00:46:24,969 --> 00:46:23,209
oh you know so and so it might be better

983
00:46:26,699 --> 00:46:24,979
doing that story or so and so already

984
00:46:30,609 --> 00:46:26,709
pitched that so why don't we try this

985
00:46:33,279 --> 00:46:30,619
and usually I know what I'm going to do

986
00:46:36,479 --> 00:46:33,289
by late Monday or early Tuesday hmm

987
00:46:39,999 --> 00:46:36,489
probably take maybe again it depends but

988
00:46:42,219 --> 00:46:40,009
on the light end an hour on the heavy

989
00:46:45,009 --> 00:46:42,229
end you know a few hours depending on if

990
00:46:46,779 --> 00:46:45,019
it's a really difficult scientific study

991
00:46:49,449 --> 00:46:46,789
that I have to dig through and make

992
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:49,459
sense of what amazes me though is that

993
00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:51,410
there will be times where it is

994
00:46:55,809 --> 00:46:53,089
complicated so I spending much more time

995
00:46:58,299 --> 00:46:55,819
than usual on it and yet Steve who

996
00:47:00,370 --> 00:46:58,309
probably just like glanced at it will

997
00:47:02,229 --> 00:47:00,380
point things out that i missed like oh

998
00:47:04,089 --> 00:47:02,239
yeah but the study actually a focused on

999
00:47:05,919 --> 00:47:04,099
his blah blah blah and the you know the

1000
00:47:09,429 --> 00:47:05,929
sample size was only and I'm like Steve

1001
00:47:11,499 --> 00:47:09,439
like how do you how do you do that he

1002
00:47:14,140 --> 00:47:11,509
just absorbs things like a sponge it's

1003
00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:14,150
really impressive yeah yeah now we are

1004
00:47:18,910 --> 00:47:17,209
at QED we r which is just wonderful is

1005
00:47:21,099 --> 00:47:18,920
so exciting and I'm awake right now

1006
00:47:23,079 --> 00:47:21,109
which I'm very impressed with myself the

1007
00:47:25,829 --> 00:47:23,089
day I got here I slept I just lost

1008
00:47:28,329 --> 00:47:25,839
consciousness immediately also the next

1009
00:47:31,470 --> 00:47:28,339
I'm glad to be on a schedule um

1010
00:47:35,340 --> 00:47:31,480
Manchester is beautiful it's really nice

1011
00:47:37,290 --> 00:47:35,350
it rails here yeah that's not a thing in

1012
00:47:39,180 --> 00:47:37,300
LA it's actually quite welcome for me I

1013
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:39,190
enjoy the rain a lot it's also a bit

1014
00:47:43,890 --> 00:47:40,930
cold at the moment it's but I like that

1015
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:43,900
your wants 72andsunny I shouldn't

1016
00:47:48,660 --> 00:47:46,330
complain I live in the best part of the

1017
00:47:50,460 --> 00:47:48,670
world I think but there are people who

1018
00:47:52,650 --> 00:47:50,470
go crazy when they come to LA because

1019
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:52,660
there are no seasons so it's nice to

1020
00:47:58,380 --> 00:47:56,050
visit places the season actually

1021
00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:58,390
Manchester is the same it also has like

1022
00:48:03,060 --> 00:48:00,640
people always complain about lanchester

1023
00:48:04,980 --> 00:48:03,070
raining a lot um it's not actually true

1024
00:48:08,849 --> 00:48:04,990
it only rains here about seven months of

1025
00:48:13,230 --> 00:48:08,859
the year just knows the other five I

1026
00:48:14,820 --> 00:48:13,240
used to live here you know yeah you're

1027
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:14,830
getting you're giving a talk here

1028
00:48:19,140 --> 00:48:16,570
tomorrow yeah I'm giving a talk tomorrow

1029
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:19,150
and I'm doing a live quote unquote as in

1030
00:48:23,460 --> 00:48:21,490
life for the audience but recorded and

1031
00:48:25,170 --> 00:48:23,470
then I'll air later on top nerdy where

1032
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:25,180
I'm interviewing sue Blackmore so that

1033
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:27,730
should be really fun um and then i'll do

1034
00:48:32,070 --> 00:48:28,960
some other recordings behind the scenes

1035
00:48:34,620 --> 00:48:32,080
in there and the toll uh i think i just

1036
00:48:36,690 --> 00:48:34,630
finished it I did turn in a flash drive

1037
00:48:40,380 --> 00:48:36,700
with some photos I slap together in a

1038
00:48:41,730 --> 00:48:40,390
keynote we will see um I'm I realized

1039
00:48:43,050 --> 00:48:41,740
when I was looking back over it I was

1040
00:48:46,770 --> 00:48:43,060
like it was kind of just a lot of

1041
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:46,780
pictures of myself Jordan wasn't you

1042
00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:48,640
talk about well I thought a good part

1043
00:48:52,260 --> 00:48:50,230
would be to introduce myself to the

1044
00:48:55,590 --> 00:48:52,270
skeptic community here in England and so

1045
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:55,600
I did want to make sure that I didn't

1046
00:48:58,650 --> 00:48:57,490
just start talking about things with no

1047
00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:58,660
context and they're like who is this

1048
00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:00,880
broad you know so I start by introducing

1049
00:49:05,310 --> 00:49:04,150
who i am what i do and kind of the

1050
00:49:08,490 --> 00:49:05,320
concept of a science communicator

1051
00:49:12,060 --> 00:49:08,500
because i think for some people that's a

1052
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:12,070
weird career and maybe they don't fully

1053
00:49:16,140 --> 00:49:14,650
understand what it entails and then I

1054
00:49:17,490 --> 00:49:16,150
talk a little bit about the American

1055
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:17,500
media landscape and some of the

1056
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:19,310
struggles and the uphill

1057
00:49:23,650 --> 00:49:20,810
battles that we fight trying to get good

1058
00:49:26,410 --> 00:49:23,660
science programming on air there and

1059
00:49:28,210 --> 00:49:26,420
then some of the kind of tricks of the

1060
00:49:30,670 --> 00:49:28,220
trade of how to do proper science

1061
00:49:32,590 --> 00:49:30,680
communication I tend to try to keep my

1062
00:49:34,540 --> 00:49:32,600
talks on the short end you know if I'm

1063
00:49:36,070 --> 00:49:34,550
allocated an hour for a talk I try to

1064
00:49:38,770 --> 00:49:36,080
when we talk for 30 or 40 minutes

1065
00:49:42,190 --> 00:49:38,780
because I think that the best content

1066
00:49:43,630 --> 00:49:42,200
comes in the QA and so a lot of times I

1067
00:49:45,130 --> 00:49:43,640
kind of want the audience to guide how

1068
00:49:47,710 --> 00:49:45,140
that I don't like talking at people I

1069
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:47,720
like communicating with people so we'll

1070
00:49:52,300 --> 00:49:50,570
see how that goes now one last thing um

1071
00:49:54,310 --> 00:49:52,310
you've been to us right here before I

1072
00:49:56,260 --> 00:49:54,320
happen but not to see me I know it's not

1073
00:49:58,780 --> 00:49:56,270
weird i flew out of Sydney but I didn't

1074
00:50:00,220 --> 00:49:58,790
actually go to write later granted okay

1075
00:50:03,450 --> 00:50:00,230
every What's Wrong k I've been to so

1076
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:03,460
many airports um yeah I've been to

1077
00:50:11,950 --> 00:50:07,610
Brisbane Melbourne Melbourne I do right

1078
00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:11,960
melbourne heaven m minden haha adelaide

1079
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:15,680
and perth and i loved a delayed at least

1080
00:50:19,570 --> 00:50:18,110
money so it is a beautiful city yeah

1081
00:50:22,030 --> 00:50:19,580
they don't have power there now they're

1082
00:50:25,540 --> 00:50:22,040
they're all like you everyone um they

1083
00:50:28,330 --> 00:50:25,550
just live in huts and erics it didn't

1084
00:50:31,770 --> 00:50:28,340
change the joke that are suitable it was

1085
00:50:34,510 --> 00:50:31,780
recently a strong and in the storm 30

1086
00:50:36,970 --> 00:50:34,520
high voltage power pylons pylons

1087
00:50:38,590 --> 00:50:36,980
actually toppled in the entire state

1088
00:50:39,930 --> 00:50:38,600
yeah the entire this state South

1089
00:50:43,090 --> 00:50:39,940
Australia do not have their own

1090
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:43,100
electrical producing capabilities

1091
00:50:49,270 --> 00:50:47,090
they're basically off the grid for are

1092
00:50:51,130 --> 00:50:49,280
they ok now well they're not the cooking

1093
00:50:54,370 --> 00:50:51,140
over open fires and stuff like that but

1094
00:50:57,730 --> 00:50:54,380
otherwise I think no burning trash

1095
00:50:59,800 --> 00:50:57,740
because it's repeated depicted in movies

1096
00:51:02,110 --> 00:50:59,810
like it's anarchy people are burning

1097
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:02,120
trash ins breathe yeah I think people

1098
00:51:06,910 --> 00:51:03,440
must be worried that they can charge

1099
00:51:08,380 --> 00:51:06,920
their phones but i'll tell you in my and

1100
00:51:10,810 --> 00:51:08,390
i hope i'm remembering correctly but

1101
00:51:13,330 --> 00:51:10,820
adelaide when i was there there's this

1102
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:13,340
like little river that kind of goes

1103
00:51:18,010 --> 00:51:15,680
through and we rode rowboat so the

1104
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:18,020
rivers like so adorable and it's such a

1105
00:51:22,420 --> 00:51:20,090
good time but i loved all of the towns

1106
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:22,430
that i visited you know I find that

1107
00:51:27,850 --> 00:51:24,530
Australia is not that different from

1108
00:51:29,110 --> 00:51:27,860
where I grew up in Texas I really think

1109
00:51:30,050 --> 00:51:29,120
Australia in Texas have a lot of

1110
00:51:34,570 --> 00:51:30,060
similarity

1111
00:51:38,170 --> 00:51:34,580
was not meant to offend here's why

1112
00:51:43,310 --> 00:51:38,180
there's a big kind of blue collar

1113
00:51:45,050 --> 00:51:43,320
engineering oil gas geology area in

1114
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:45,060
Australia right especially in like birth

1115
00:51:50,690 --> 00:51:48,000
that's a place where you see a lot of

1116
00:51:52,460 --> 00:51:50,700
similarities in the education and the

1117
00:51:55,310 --> 00:51:52,470
the jobs if the people who work there

1118
00:51:57,860 --> 00:51:55,320
very similar to texas in that way i find

1119
00:52:00,110 --> 00:51:57,870
that the sensibilities the way that

1120
00:52:03,110 --> 00:52:00,120
people eat is very similar to texas and

1121
00:52:05,860 --> 00:52:03,120
it's so friendly a lot of times when you

1122
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:05,870
go to a country that you're not from

1123
00:52:09,380 --> 00:52:07,710
there's a lot of things you have to

1124
00:52:10,940 --> 00:52:09,390
adjust to right especially if it's a

1125
00:52:12,290 --> 00:52:10,950
place where they don't speak the

1126
00:52:13,910 --> 00:52:12,300
language that you speak it's much easier

1127
00:52:15,710 --> 00:52:13,920
coming to England or Australia because

1128
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:15,720
if they speak English sometimes it

1129
00:52:20,690 --> 00:52:17,730
doesn't seem like it but you still don't

1130
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:20,700
understand what anybody's saying but

1131
00:52:24,610 --> 00:52:22,800
there's still these big cultural

1132
00:52:27,950 --> 00:52:24,620
differences in the way that people

1133
00:52:29,420 --> 00:52:27,960
communicate and interact I found that

1134
00:52:31,910 --> 00:52:29,430
when I went to Australia it felt like I

1135
00:52:33,830 --> 00:52:31,920
went home to Texas people were just very

1136
00:52:38,060 --> 00:52:33,840
friendly very familiar and there was a

1137
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:38,070
neighborly aspect that um I don't get

1138
00:52:44,060 --> 00:52:41,090
when I don't always get one to travel

1139
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:44,070
when we met in new york in may i

1140
00:52:48,530 --> 00:52:46,410
mentioned you mentioned that you hadn't

1141
00:52:50,690 --> 00:52:48,540
been to Sydney and what I said was that

1142
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:50,700
you know you stick around with es tu for

1143
00:52:54,410 --> 00:52:52,530
long enough yeah and you will an

1144
00:52:56,810 --> 00:52:54,420
alchemist writer so we're still working

1145
00:52:58,070 --> 00:52:56,820
on we'll see oh you only do how much fun

1146
00:53:02,300 --> 00:52:58,080
it would be to travel with those guys to

1147
00:53:03,830 --> 00:53:02,310
Australia oh yeah you do know um just so

1148
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:03,840
long as it's so the last time I went to

1149
00:53:09,020 --> 00:53:05,040
Australia the only time I've been to

1150
00:53:11,630 --> 00:53:09,030
Australia I got to hug a koala and I got

1151
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:11,640
to snuggle with a wombat which smelled

1152
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:13,290
really bad but was so cute and I've

1153
00:53:18,650 --> 00:53:14,880
wanted to do that again could i do what

1154
00:53:20,570 --> 00:53:18,660
do I need rubbers people tell me Derek

1155
00:53:23,060 --> 00:53:20,580
tells me about these damn drop bears and

1156
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:23,070
my friend Casey who's also australia

1157
00:53:27,980 --> 00:53:25,770
australian friend um is that that's a

1158
00:53:31,890 --> 00:53:27,990
fake thing that you guys make up to meza

1159
00:53:36,299 --> 00:53:31,900
torrents it's okay you all tell me about

1160
00:53:41,700 --> 00:53:36,309
draw us give a hunger for American blood

1161
00:53:43,890 --> 00:53:41,710
or something fun I don't believe you I'm

1162
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:43,900
trying not to be as gullible as I'm not

1163
00:53:51,539 --> 00:53:46,960
saying can you be a good skeptic are you

1164
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:51,549
okay you know I take with you aha but I

1165
00:53:55,140 --> 00:53:53,650
do I would love to come back I would

1166
00:53:57,750 --> 00:53:55,150
love to see Sydney I know it's like you

1167
00:53:59,490 --> 00:53:57,760
know more metropolitan city it's a where

1168
00:54:02,039 --> 00:53:59,500
most of my friends that are Australian

1169
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:02,049
are from or at least lived most the

1170
00:54:06,029 --> 00:54:03,730
majority of their lives and I would love

1171
00:54:09,620 --> 00:54:06,039
to see what all the hubbub is about and

1172
00:54:14,039 --> 00:54:09,630
eat some brekkie yes directly together

1173
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:14,049
okay so yeah so do you know you looked

1174
00:54:17,460 --> 00:54:16,089
about now no you mentioned it and I

1175
00:54:19,730 --> 00:54:17,470
still don't every time you say and I

1176
00:54:24,809 --> 00:54:19,740
still think you're saying fared income

1177
00:54:27,450 --> 00:54:24,819
what we look good okay symptom fair

1178
00:54:29,339 --> 00:54:27,460
dinkum fair dinkum choice on Australian

1179
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:29,349
is is that dirty but I just thought no

1180
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:44,190
miss November National Geographic live

1181
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:46,710
will take you

1182
00:54:54,030 --> 00:54:50,770
Tomas we're attempting something on

1183
00:54:56,220 --> 00:54:54,040
parallel in space flight the minds who

1184
00:55:00,060 --> 00:54:56,230
will take us there in this never to be

1185
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:00,070
repeated live experience the biggest

1186
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:04,210
thing for Humanity is to go to Mars

1187
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:07,210
Apollo legend Buzz Aldrin joins the

1188
00:55:13,110 --> 00:55:09,520
world's leading authorities live on

1189
00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:13,120
stage 2 ramone sydney and canberra this

1190
00:55:19,140 --> 00:55:17,200
november with hosts ray martin featuring

1191
00:55:22,590 --> 00:55:19,150
stunning images from global space

1192
00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:22,600
agencies and spectacular imagery from

1193
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:24,880
national Geographics groundbreaking new

1194
00:55:30,010 --> 00:55:27,650
series Mars

1195
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:30,020
vision control we're looking at a red

1196
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:33,170
planet tickets on sale now with VIP

1197
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:34,850
packages available to attend the

1198
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:37,250
exclusive pre-show cocktail reception

1199
00:55:53,780 --> 00:55:42,860
come on an exciting journey to our new

1200
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:53,790
home Mars the live experience Mars the

1201
00:55:58,940 --> 00:55:55,890
live experience fourth of November

1202
00:56:01,490 --> 00:55:58,950
Melbourne Town Hall sixth of November

1203
00:56:04,340 --> 00:56:01,500
horn pavilion Sydney and the seventh of

1204
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:04,350
november Llewellyn hall in Canberra for

1205
00:56:09,530 --> 00:56:07,050
your tickets just Google Mars the live

1206
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:09,540
experience or follow the link on this

1207
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:29,480
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1208
00:56:35,060 --> 00:56:32,850
zone next week more more from QED in

1209
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:35,070
Manchester with their answer give and I

1210
00:56:38,690 --> 00:56:37,050
think it's a bit of a doctor car special

1211
00:56:42,500 --> 00:56:38,700
will be playing Iran's interview with

1212
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:42,510
dr. Carl and also an interview or a

1213
00:56:52,130 --> 00:56:47,130
session dr. Kyle did with Maynard in the

1214
00:56:55,900 --> 00:56:52,140
early 90s I think about nineteen ninety

1215
00:56:58,940 --> 00:56:55,910
one or so a quarter of a century ago

1216
00:57:01,340 --> 00:56:58,950
it's ridiculous and main arden dr. carl

1217
00:57:03,380 --> 00:57:01,350
is still in the media doing all sorts of

1218
00:57:05,300 --> 00:57:03,390
wonderful things that's longevity for

1219
00:57:07,550 --> 00:57:05,310
you folks look out for that on next

1220
00:57:09,500 --> 00:57:07,560
week's show and don't forget you can

1221
00:57:12,020 --> 00:57:09,510
still buy your tickets to the Australian

1222
00:57:14,540 --> 00:57:12,030
skeptics National Convention I in

1223
00:57:18,050 --> 00:57:14,550
melbourne from the 25th to the 27th of

1224
00:57:21,620 --> 00:57:18,060
november convention skeptics com delay

1225
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:21,630
you is the website to head for those of

1226
00:57:25,550 --> 00:57:23,370
you in New Zealand of course there's the

1227
00:57:28,340 --> 00:57:25,560
New Zealand skeptics conference and I

1228
00:57:31,850 --> 00:57:28,350
will see you there conference dot

1229
00:57:35,180 --> 00:57:31,860
skeptics n Z and that'll be early

1230
00:57:38,930 --> 00:57:35,190
December and in late breaking news I'm

1231
00:57:42,410 --> 00:57:38,940
trying to line up a talk I will be

1232
00:57:46,310 --> 00:57:42,420
giving hopefully in berkeley in berkeley

1233
00:57:48,860 --> 00:57:46,320
california sometime around late december

1234
00:57:52,610 --> 00:57:48,870
i will keep you posted those people in

1235
00:57:56,540 --> 00:57:52,620
the San Francisco Bay Area seeing if we

1236
00:57:59,330 --> 00:57:56,550
can figure out a talk I can give at some

1237
00:58:02,150 --> 00:57:59,340
location or other in lateish December

1238
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:02,160
that'll be fun maybe I can talk about

1239
00:58:07,250 --> 00:58:04,290
deadly Australian animals like Heidi

1240
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:07,260
Robertson did last week on the show now

1241
00:58:11,330 --> 00:58:08,970
you'll remember a couple of weeks ago we

1242
00:58:12,980 --> 00:58:11,340
played the skeptic zone live from Sydney

1243
00:58:17,270 --> 00:58:12,990
skeptics in the pub was a great success

1244
00:58:19,250 --> 00:58:17,280
and everybody who came along I think

1245
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:19,260
they all agreed the pub was a fantastic

1246
00:58:23,930 --> 00:58:21,810
venue it's a new pub for us it's just

1247
00:58:27,050 --> 00:58:23,940
near when you'd station the Occidental

1248
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:27,060
hotel well the next skeptics in the pub

1249
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:30,090
is thursday the third of november from

1250
00:58:36,740 --> 00:58:32,970
6pm at the Occidental hotel which is 43

1251
00:58:38,420 --> 00:58:36,750
York Street as I say just behind or just

1252
00:58:41,540 --> 00:58:38,430
near winyan station

1253
00:58:45,849 --> 00:58:41,550
and this time we're going to be talking

1254
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:45,859
about nigerian the famous nigerian scams

1255
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:49,290
for more information and to register you

1256
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:50,730
don't have to register you can just turn

1257
00:58:55,700 --> 00:58:53,040
up we'd love it if you just just show up

1258
00:59:00,410 --> 00:58:55,710
that's that's fine but if you register

1259
00:59:04,130 --> 00:59:00,420
at meetup.com day you /a ust skeptics

1260
00:59:08,510 --> 00:59:04,140
aust skeptics are all the better and we

1261
00:59:11,660 --> 00:59:08,520
can see who's coming and possibly make

1262
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:11,670
make sure there's enough room and it's a

1263
00:59:17,690 --> 00:59:14,250
good way for you once you join that to

1264
00:59:19,940 --> 00:59:17,700
be kept up to date with future talks and

1265
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:19,950
things and conventions and skeptics in

1266
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:23,040
the pub's meetup com delay you / aust

1267
00:59:28,940 --> 00:59:25,890
skeptics and a link of course in this

1268
00:59:31,190 --> 00:59:28,950
week's show note and before I go a big

1269
00:59:36,170 --> 00:59:31,200
good luck shout out to Maynard who's

1270
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:36,180
just about to as I record this podcast

1271
00:59:43,839 --> 00:59:39,650
he's probably at sydney airport on the

1272
00:59:46,910 --> 00:59:43,849
first leg of the vengaboys to her he's

1273
00:59:48,859 --> 00:59:46,920
the host of the vengaboys tour for the

1274
00:59:51,170 --> 00:59:48,869
next two weeks I think of something like

1275
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:51,180
that good luck may not maybe we can

1276
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:53,760
maybe we can get a report from maenad on

1277
00:59:58,730 --> 00:59:55,770
the road along the way we'll see good

1278
01:00:01,549 --> 00:59:58,740
luck may not but for this week this is

1279
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:01,559
Richard Saunders signing off from Sydney

1280
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:07,920
Australia you've been listening to the

1281
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:10,410
skeptics own podcast visit our website

1282
01:00:17,599 --> 01:00:14,250
at wwc a petting zoo TV for contacts an

1283
01:00:20,690 --> 01:00:17,609
archive of all episodes since 2008 and

1284
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:20,700
our online store please support the

1285
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:22,770
skeptic zone by following us on twitter

1286
01:00:29,630 --> 01:00:26,130
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1287
01:00:31,130 --> 01:00:29,640
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1288
01:00:34,970 --> 01:00:31,140
also show your support by subscribing

1289
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:34,980
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1290
01:00:38,670 --> 01:00:38,010
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1291
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:38,680
production

1292
01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:40,810
the views and opinions expressed on the

1293
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:42,880
skeptic zone and not necessarily those